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| Turner: Abergavenny Bridge Monmouthshire, clearing up after a showery day |
The previous post followed Llewellyn Tilley's parents. Today we turn to the parents and family of his wife, Elizabeth Vivian. However, definitive information has proved hard to come by, so this post shows potential records in need of confirmation if I'm to get any further than the name and occupation of Elizabeth's father.
Our first definitive clue comes from census returns for Llewellyn and Elizabeth's household, in which her place of birth is given as Abergavenny, Monmouthshire. For example, in the 1851 Wales Census, we find the happy couple at 6 Chapel Street, Tredegar:
Llewellyn Tilley Head Mar 26 Grocer & General Shopkeeper Wiltshire, Kingswood
Elizabeth do Wife Mar 22 Monmouthshire, Abergavenny
Looking for Vivian baptisms in Abergavenny, Monmouthshire, familysearch.org yields the following England Births and Christenings 1538-1975:
Mary Vivian 14 February 1824 John Vivian and Mary
Elizabeth Vivian 23 June 1828 John Vivian and Mary
James Vivian 1 March 1831 John Vivian and Mary
Jane Vivian 8 May 1833 John Vivian and Mary
This Elizabeth, daughter of John and Mary Vivian appears to match the Elizabeth, wife of Llewellyn Tilley of the census returns in age and place of birth. And we have some siblings. But, unanswerable for me now, how many Vivians are there in Abergavenny at this time?
Next, and also definitive, comes their marriage registration (BMD Marriage Llewellyn Tilley and Elizabeth Vivian Dec1850 Abergavenny 26 29), presented in the previous post, and which I repeat here:
19 October 1850 at Rhymney Church
Groom: Llewellyn Tilley Full Age Bachelor Shopkeeper Rhymney
father: John Tilley Shopkeeper
Bride: Elizabeth Vivian Full Age Spinster Rhymney
father: John Vivian Confectioner
signed: Llewellyn Tilley and Elizabeth Vivian
witnessed: John Tilley and Eliza White
Like the baptisms, this gives her father's name as John Vivian, with the added information that by occupation he is a confectioner. Recall that Llewellyn Tilley establishes a Confectioner shop in Wotton-under-edge by 1871. This does narrow down the search; how many John Vivians are there in Abergavenny at this time?
Baker and confectioner often go together as occupations. Pigot's Trade Directory for 1830 shows a John Vivian, Baker on Tudor Street, Abergavenny. But, while John Watkins of Frogmore Street is listed as under Bakers and also under Confectioners, John Vivian is only listed under Bakers. This doesn't preclude the possibility that he becomes a confectioner later, but I have no evidence that he did.
Searching ancestry.com for Vivian in Monmouthshire gives several possibilities, first among them, the 1841 Wales Census for the Parish of Aberystruth. The address looks like, "Garn Nach Nanty Glo Ironworks", a picture of which I posted in the previously:
Like the baptisms, this gives her father's name as John Vivian, with the added information that by occupation he is a confectioner. Recall that Llewellyn Tilley establishes a Confectioner shop in Wotton-under-edge by 1871. This does narrow down the search; how many John Vivians are there in Abergavenny at this time?
Baker and confectioner often go together as occupations. Pigot's Trade Directory for 1830 shows a John Vivian, Baker on Tudor Street, Abergavenny. But, while John Watkins of Frogmore Street is listed as under Bakers and also under Confectioners, John Vivian is only listed under Bakers. This doesn't preclude the possibility that he becomes a confectioner later, but I have no evidence that he did.
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| Composite image from page elements in Pigot's Directory 1830 |
Searching ancestry.com for Vivian in Monmouthshire gives several possibilities, first among them, the 1841 Wales Census for the Parish of Aberystruth. The address looks like, "Garn Nach Nanty Glo Ironworks", a picture of which I posted in the previously:
John Vivian 40 Baker No[t born in Monmouthshire]
Mary do 35 N
Mary do 15 Y[es, born in Monmouthshire]
Ann do 14 Y
Eliza do 10 Y
Jane do 8 Y
Alfred do 5 Y
The names of the head of household and of his presumed wife, John Vivian and Mary, match the baptisms in Abergavenny. John's occupation in Aberystruth for the census in 1841 matches the John Vivian of Pigot's Directory in Abergavenny 1830. Mary (aged 15, presumably the daughter) and Jane of the census indeed match the baptisms. Not having an Abergavenny baptism for Alfred could be explained away by the family moving after Jane's baptism. Not having James in the census could be explained by his dying young (England and Wales Deaths and Burials has James Vivian buried at Abergavenny 16 March 1831 - no age is given but possibly he is the child baptized in Abergavenny on the 1st). Maybe Eliza of the census is really Elizabeth, in which case her age should have been 12 to match the baptism, instead of 10. As if all that explaining away isn't enough, where is Ann for the baptisms? Maybe they moved frequently?
Thus, I am not convinced that this census record refers to the same family as the Abergavenny baptisms. Nor am I sure that either the census or the baptisms belong to Llewellyn's in-laws. In the absence of indisputable contradictory data, I haven't ruled them out either, and I'm interested in finding more evidence. With the 1841 census in mind, I searched for more census data of Vivians from Abergavenny, hoping for more clues.
Ann Vivian of the census marries James Leah (BMD Marriage Sep1849 Crickhowell 26 400). I even found the certificate on a public member tree. They are married in Llanelli 5 August 1849, and resident in Brynmawr. Her father is John Vivian, Baker. In later censuses, brother Alfred Vivian is a member of their household. His place of birth is given as Brynmawr. I am certain that this line is associated with the 1841 census family.
BMD Marriages has Jane Vivian and David Davies Mar1851 Crickhowell 26 401, corresponding to familysearch.org result through Wales, Brecknockshire Parish Registers 1538-1912 in Llanelli 3 March 1851. I would suspect this is the Jane of the 1841 census. Given the registration district for these marriages, the following might be death records for the parents:
John Vivian Mar1843 Crickhowell 26 263
Mary Vivian Sep1847 Crickhowell 26 202
Not necessarily related to the 1841 census family, there is a John Vivian from Abergavenny in 1851, 1861 and 1871 census returns. Although I suspect these refer to one individual (only one John Vivian from Abergavenny in each of these censuses), his reported ages are inconsistent. Assuming he was born about 1820 his wife would be nearly 20 years his junior. This might explain why he significantly under-reports his age while she is alive.
In 1861 at 61 Morgan Street, Tredegar:
John Vivian Head Mar 31 Confectioner & Baker Monmouthshire, Abergavenny
Ann " Wife " 22 Cardiganshire, Treddol
Mary Owens Visitor " 48 " "
In 1871 at 20, 5th Row,Tredegar:
John Vivian Head M 40 Baker Abergavenny, Mon
Ann " Wife M 30 " "
Edwin Price Lodger S 42 Fitter Sirhowy, Mon
Mary Vivian Daur S 9 Scholar Tredegar, Mon
Jane Vivian Daur S 7 " " "
In 1881 at Carno Street Back Houses:
John Vivian Head Wdr 59 Baker & Confectioner Abergavenny, Mon
Mary Ann Vivian Daur Unm 19 Dressmaker Tredegar, Mon
The unifying information is his occupation of Baker and Confectioner. Possibly he is an older son of the John Vivian of the 1841 census. If so, I haven't found a baptism, or any other evidence of a link between the two.
In partial answer to the question of how many John Vivians, I have found two more who of that name appear in the valleys. Living not far from Hester Tilley at 41 Charles Street, Tredegar 1851, is John Vivian, Grocer, born about 1822 in Haselbury Bryan, Dorset (at No.44). According to ancestry.com public member trees, his father would appear to be the grandly-named Dioclesian Vivian, and so not a brother to our Elizabeth.
Then, googling for John Vivian, I found one of that name who died in an accident in Tredegar 27 November 1838, obviously not our John Vivian, who was alive in 1841. However, this John, born 1797, was the son of Charles Vivian of a branch of the family from Camborne, Cornwall, who had moved to Neath, Glamorganshire. Inspecting trees of this family, I see that a brother of Charles, Roger Vivian also named a son John, born 1799. There is no more information about him, but he would be the correct age for the John of the 1841 census...
Still, there are several Vivian lines and many John Vivians in various parts of the country. The Industrial Revolution in South Wales attracted people from all over, so I am still none the wiser over the identity of Elizabeth Vivian's parents. All I know for sure is that her father is John Vivian , Confectioner who spent enough time in the valleys for Elizabeth to be born in Abergavenny about 1828. On the origins of this family I am waiting for more light to shine.
Mary do 35 N
Mary do 15 Y[es, born in Monmouthshire]
Ann do 14 Y
Eliza do 10 Y
Jane do 8 Y
Alfred do 5 Y
The names of the head of household and of his presumed wife, John Vivian and Mary, match the baptisms in Abergavenny. John's occupation in Aberystruth for the census in 1841 matches the John Vivian of Pigot's Directory in Abergavenny 1830. Mary (aged 15, presumably the daughter) and Jane of the census indeed match the baptisms. Not having an Abergavenny baptism for Alfred could be explained away by the family moving after Jane's baptism. Not having James in the census could be explained by his dying young (England and Wales Deaths and Burials has James Vivian buried at Abergavenny 16 March 1831 - no age is given but possibly he is the child baptized in Abergavenny on the 1st). Maybe Eliza of the census is really Elizabeth, in which case her age should have been 12 to match the baptism, instead of 10. As if all that explaining away isn't enough, where is Ann for the baptisms? Maybe they moved frequently?
Thus, I am not convinced that this census record refers to the same family as the Abergavenny baptisms. Nor am I sure that either the census or the baptisms belong to Llewellyn's in-laws. In the absence of indisputable contradictory data, I haven't ruled them out either, and I'm interested in finding more evidence. With the 1841 census in mind, I searched for more census data of Vivians from Abergavenny, hoping for more clues.
Ann Vivian of the census marries James Leah (BMD Marriage Sep1849 Crickhowell 26 400). I even found the certificate on a public member tree. They are married in Llanelli 5 August 1849, and resident in Brynmawr. Her father is John Vivian, Baker. In later censuses, brother Alfred Vivian is a member of their household. His place of birth is given as Brynmawr. I am certain that this line is associated with the 1841 census family.
BMD Marriages has Jane Vivian and David Davies Mar1851 Crickhowell 26 401, corresponding to familysearch.org result through Wales, Brecknockshire Parish Registers 1538-1912 in Llanelli 3 March 1851. I would suspect this is the Jane of the 1841 census. Given the registration district for these marriages, the following might be death records for the parents:
John Vivian Mar1843 Crickhowell 26 263
Mary Vivian Sep1847 Crickhowell 26 202
Not necessarily related to the 1841 census family, there is a John Vivian from Abergavenny in 1851, 1861 and 1871 census returns. Although I suspect these refer to one individual (only one John Vivian from Abergavenny in each of these censuses), his reported ages are inconsistent. Assuming he was born about 1820 his wife would be nearly 20 years his junior. This might explain why he significantly under-reports his age while she is alive.
In 1861 at 61 Morgan Street, Tredegar:
John Vivian Head Mar 31 Confectioner & Baker Monmouthshire, Abergavenny
Ann " Wife " 22 Cardiganshire, Treddol
Mary Owens Visitor " 48 " "
In 1871 at 20, 5th Row,Tredegar:
John Vivian Head M 40 Baker Abergavenny, Mon
Ann " Wife M 30 " "
Edwin Price Lodger S 42 Fitter Sirhowy, Mon
Mary Vivian Daur S 9 Scholar Tredegar, Mon
Jane Vivian Daur S 7 " " "
In 1881 at Carno Street Back Houses:
John Vivian Head Wdr 59 Baker & Confectioner Abergavenny, Mon
Mary Ann Vivian Daur Unm 19 Dressmaker Tredegar, Mon
The unifying information is his occupation of Baker and Confectioner. Possibly he is an older son of the John Vivian of the 1841 census. If so, I haven't found a baptism, or any other evidence of a link between the two.
In partial answer to the question of how many John Vivians, I have found two more who of that name appear in the valleys. Living not far from Hester Tilley at 41 Charles Street, Tredegar 1851, is John Vivian, Grocer, born about 1822 in Haselbury Bryan, Dorset (at No.44). According to ancestry.com public member trees, his father would appear to be the grandly-named Dioclesian Vivian, and so not a brother to our Elizabeth.
Then, googling for John Vivian, I found one of that name who died in an accident in Tredegar 27 November 1838, obviously not our John Vivian, who was alive in 1841. However, this John, born 1797, was the son of Charles Vivian of a branch of the family from Camborne, Cornwall, who had moved to Neath, Glamorganshire. Inspecting trees of this family, I see that a brother of Charles, Roger Vivian also named a son John, born 1799. There is no more information about him, but he would be the correct age for the John of the 1841 census...
Still, there are several Vivian lines and many John Vivians in various parts of the country. The Industrial Revolution in South Wales attracted people from all over, so I am still none the wiser over the identity of Elizabeth Vivian's parents. All I know for sure is that her father is John Vivian , Confectioner who spent enough time in the valleys for Elizabeth to be born in Abergavenny about 1828. On the origins of this family I am waiting for more light to shine.
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